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Ravi0:17It's Ravi. Thanks for sticking around with me. It's been a while since I last had a podcast. I started a Motivated Life podcast thinking I would be releasing at least two episodes a month. Well, I've been fully at fault in not sticking to that schedule. It's been several months since my last conversation, which was with Benjamin Spall. And just during that time, I've been busy. with other stuff. I've been writing a bunch, traveling a bunch, coaching a bunch. And I realized that it's about time to get another podcast out there.
And when I had that realization, I looked down and realized, well, I was reading a book at the time. And I remembered that the author is someone who I had met. And so I reached out to that author. His name is Greg Lavoie. And he's going to be your guest for today's episode. And I'm really, really pleased to bring you Greg's message. He's written a couple books all about finding your calling and following your passion. And there are a few things more controversial than this whole conversation about should you follow your passion or not.
It seems like every month there's another viral article getting spread around. Sometimes saying don't follow your passion, other times saying, Follow your passion. And so in this episode, we get to the heart of it. What is passion? What's the role of it? And should we follow it when it comes to our desire to live a great life and have a great career? And so we go pretty deep into this topic. And Greg's book, Vital Signs, is excellent. And it's quite a hefty book. It's almost 500 pages, and it's a large book at that.
But it's so well written. I can't remember the last time. Well, it's been a while since I've read a book and had to stop every few pages just to reflect and think about either a story being told or a metaphor being used or just to really think about the concepts being introduced. And this is one of those books. So if you care about building a career you can be proud of, if you care about finding a way to get more engaged day to day in life and in work.
Or maybe, if you're wondering if the job you're in is the be-all, end-all, well, this episode, I hope, will inspire you to look deeper within yourself, to see what signs and what signals are showing up for you, and perhaps even challenge you to think about creating a lifestyle and career that is one of passion, is one of engagement and, of course, one of contributions. So we go into all these topics and more in this conversation. Greg is a very dynamic speaker. I actually met him in person.
He did a workshop here in Colorado that I was attending. So I hope some of that energy also comes through in this podcast. And aside from that, I am looking forward to bringing you more regular episodes. So I appreciate you bearing with me. and of course if you like the podcast, I would appreciate your sharing it or leaving it an honest review on iTunes. Sharing and leaving reviews are the best ways to support me. After all, I don't have any ads on the podcast and have no plan on adding ads to this podcast.
I strictly rely on you sharing it with your friends if you find it useful. So, with no further do, I bring you Greg Lavoie. Greg, really great to chat with you.
Gregg4:20Thanks. Great to be here. Yeah.
Ravi4:22You know, I first got exposed to your work almost a year ago where you came out to Colorado and gave a talk and a mini workshop to a group of coaches. I'm a coach, so I was part of the audience. And it was about a topic that was really close to home, which was all about finding your calling and rekindling passion. And it was something that I've thought a lot about, but then hearing your talk, just realized just how deep a topic this really was. And I picked up both of your books, including Vital Signs, which is this massive book.
And I came home from that workshop all jazzed about just like really going deep and trying to understand more about, even from myself, my passion, my calling. And then life got in the way. And I put the book on the shelf. And then, you know, something triggered me to pick it up off the shelf a few months ago. And I started reading it and devoured it. You know, just really interesting and engaging work that got me thinking about passion in a different way and also thinking about how important it is to really be a seeker and searching for what is passionate.
in life. And so just thank you for writing this, this really, really engaging book. You're welcome. Yeah. Now, I'm curious for you, you know, I read this book. You share a lot of your personal stories and other things. What motivated you to dive so deeply into a subject like discovering passion?
Gregg6:02Wow. You know, really to answer that question, I have to, I have to turn the clock all the way back, as I suppose a lot of us do. when we're looking for our motivations for why we do things, all the way back to my family of origin, because among other things, I come from a family where, in my humble opinion, neither one of my parents really did what they wanted to do with their lives. And that really got under my skin, watching that unfold over the course of my entire childhood and young adulthood.
And I also come from a family business. So this is a designer I wear firm in New York called toura, and every male in my family went into that business except me and my two brothers, and what happened as a result of that was the business was sold out of the family for the first time in a hundred years. And the second thing is my father cut all three of us out of his will, so a little earlier in life than I would have preferred, I got a lesson in some of the the fallout that can come from following your own path, from making my own choice.
This was not going to be a match between who I was and what I did in the world to go into the family business. So really early on in my life, I understood the sacrifices that can ensue by being truthful to yourself and what you really feel that you were put here to do. So that set me off on the lifelong fascination with how people create a life, that really belongs to them and isn't a knockoff or hand me down. And I think of that when I think of your question of where did this start?
How did I get into the subject of passion is very much grew out of my personal experiences, not just in my family, but eventually I did what you did. I was working for a corporation for years. It was the Gannett Corporation. They own about 100 newspapers around the country, including USA Today. and the Cincinnati Inquirer, both of which I worked for. But after 10 years of doing that, I quit to be a freelance writer, which is not exactly a decision designed to reassure your parents. But I took copious field notes on what happens as you follow your passions, as they unfold, as you get very clear calls about what you're supposed to do.
And I just simply became the scientist that my father should have been and I watch the process unfold.
Ravi8:41Got it. And so maybe we can even pause for a second on passion. Passion, the word itself. I mean, I'm curious, when we're talking about passion, I'm sure the listeners have all kinds of ideas of what that is. And from your perspective, when you say passion, what is it? and if you could talk a little bit about also why it really matters, because I can imagine people thinking, well, it would be a nice to have but not essential. So what is passion and why does it really matter that we have it as part of our lives and also careers?
Gregg9:20Yeah. Well, I think I'm really defining it most simply the way most people do. Passion is simply life force. It's mojo, it's vitality, it's spark. And it's in every arena. It's not just in the work arena. I mean, you know, you either have or don't have passion for your partnerships, your friendships, your friendships, your kids, your sports, your, you know, passion is all across the spectrum. But really, ultimately, it's just life energy. And one of my questions is either what gives it to you or what takes it away from you.
And just to really look at that question in your life, do I, you know, it's not like you have to wake up in the morning clicking your heels. You know, it's like you said earlier, life intrudes. And, and, you know, passion kind of comes and goes and comes and goes in all different arenas. But overall, I think it's important to simply ask, do I love my work? Do I love my life? Do I love my life? Do I love my, do I love my friends and my family, and does it show?
Because there's walking the talk and there's not walking the talk. And I just think, you know, ultimately, the truth about passion is that it comes from a word meaning to suffer. And so, you know, this notion that passion is just exuberance is part of the, that's part of the show. But the other part is that what are you willing to suffer on behalf of. Ah. You know, that kind of begs that question. And so I just want to offer a generous bow to the fact that passion does include a certain amount of suffering.
Yeah.
Ravi11:08You know, in your introduction, you have this, you have a number of really interesting just visuals and metaphors and just ways of speaking to things. And you had this line where you said, and this is sort of what drew me into the book. You said, because even reading and I thought, Passion is, I was thinking before, passion is the icing on top of the cake. But in the introduction, you say, passion is a survival mechanism because it's your attachment to life that really depends on your interest in life.
And for me, that was really interesting because I see the truth in the fact that, you know, if we're not passionate, we're not engaged with life. And if we're not engaged, I mean, that's one of the points of life to be engaged. So it's vital to life. It's not a nice to have. And I think that's a really interesting distinction that left me asking myself, how engaged am I? Just it sort of put more context around passion from being a clicking my heels to a, no, am I engaged in life?
Gregg12:16That's right. Yeah, I didn't mean to overstate it either when I said that a passion is a survival mechanism. because I really think it is, and it seems like people who study this stuff have found that people who tend to thrive the most over the course of their lives, they're deeply engaged in it. They're curious about it. They're grateful for it.
Ravi12:41You know, an engagement, so that brings up another thing, which is, you know, anyone who's a manager has seen these research studies shared on LinkedIn and all coaches know this, that engagement is a big deal and engagement is much lower than we think. I was looking at the latest stats from the Gallup poll. They survey this weekly because people are so interested. Unfortunately, the data doesn't move. It shows that in America, less than about 30% of people are engaged. In other words, 70% are just not engaged in their work.
Costing something like half a trillion dollars to the American economy, not to mention health. and whatever. I also saw, I was looking at it, and it had another stat saying 51% of American workers are keeping an eye out for a new job at any given time. So we look at high disengagement over half the population sort of eyes out for new jobs, even when they're employed. So what do you think is going on with that? Why do you think so many people are feeling disengaged at work?
I mean, do you have any sense? Because to me, it strikes to, you know, if they're, if they have more passion or they're looking for it, these numbers wouldn't be so bleak. So what's really going on?
Gregg14:00That is a great question. That is a great question. Why is that going on? I mean, I made a point in the book that maybe comes across as a little facetious, but it's not. And it's that the fascination we have, with even the subject of passion. And I've just pulled this out. The term, follow your passion, has increased ninefold in English books since 1990. This comes from the Atlantic magazine. And they got it from personality and social psychology bulletin. In any case, a ninefold increase in the interest, just in the term, follow your passion.
I think that that fascination is the flip side of our current fascination. of zombies and vampires. Remember this from the book? And there have been 50,000 books written about those two subjects in the last 20 years, 500 movies and TV shows. And this is significant to me because I think what that represents, that interest in zombies and vampires is it reflects our collective fear of being sucked of our life force and left an account. catatonic state. Okay, so vampires and zombies. And I think that follows us around everywhere and certainly into the vocational world, you know, is are we at jobs that are recognizing who we really are, matching who we are to what we do 9 through 5, Monday through Friday, the least?
Are we getting regular feedback? This is so many studies have shown how important it is for employee engagement and job satisfaction to get regular feedback. And are we in jobs where we're being encouraged to take risks? And, you know, not a lot of jobs have those faculties built into them. And I think people are bored and they're restless. And as one of the reasons I left the corporate world is I remember proposing to my immediate boss that I trade a raise for one. 30 minute feedback session once a month.
That's all they wanted because I've been reading these studies showing that I'm going to do better at work and be more engaged there and more productive if I get feedback. I asked them, I was going to trade a raise out. I mean, who does that? For one 30 minute feedback session once a month, they turned me down. And this was one of the things that made me realize this is really, this is really not a supportive environment. And And that was just one of the diagnostics that I used to tell me I need to get out of here.
I think a lot of people are in that situation where there isn't, just for starters, there may not be a match between the kind of who they are, I mentioned it, and what they do. And I think of this theology, and I ran across in my research who said, Frederick Bukner is his name. He said, find the place where your deep gladness meets the world's deep hunger. And I think that is eminently applicable to the vocational world where your deep gladness, your passion, your fascination, your curiosity, your intensity intersects with where the world is hungry and in need.
You said, that's the sweet spot. Well,
Ravi17:33You hit on a point there because you're saying it's not just about you or the individual, It's about how the individual can serve, which is a different point of perspective. You know, I run into a lot of people who are stuck, and they're stuck because they don't know what they want or they don't know what they need to do, and so just in hearing you share those two sides, it sounds like there is this element of where you meet the world, where you can serve the world, where you can fill a need right that might create I don't know a gap on, I'm just thinking personally.
In part, that was the spark that led me to say, well, how can I, how can I serve the world? It's what led me to be a coach. Uh-huh. Because I cared about people and also there was a dire need to help people do better at work without burning out.
Gregg18:28So I'm curious, what, what is your sense of why there's so, you know, that 51% that you refer to people looking for jobs and 70% disengagement? What is your sense as a coach?
Ravi18:41Well, I think there's a – well, one thing is I think there's something about the idea that things don't have to be that way. So, you know, the whole frog in boiling water metaphor of, okay, it's just going to be like this and you just sort of, you know, stay in that environment. And in part reading your book reminded me, no, passion is an essential ingredient. It's not just a nice to have. I'll get it later. It's an essential ingredient and the quest for a passionate way of work and an engaged life is a worthwhile thing.
And I think part of the reason is people need to understand that, you know, we spend so much of our time working. We sort of owe it to ourselves to be engaged. That's a possibility. And I think it's so ironic because lots of people work in companies that have big visions and big possibilities. But the same is true for individuals and what they can create in their career in life. So in part, you know, they should, in a way, hold a higher standard for what's possible for themselves.
You can have a life that's more engaged, more passionate day to day, a work that's serving others and serving yourself more day to day. So I think the starting point is just to be on that as you talk in your book, that quest for this deeper possibility. And that might mean staying in your job and working for the promo, or in my case, after 14 years in tech, pivoting. Right. So I think part of it is if people really understood that there's a quest worth having, not that it would make it okay to be in your current job, but I think it would, they'd be able to be more engaged because they knew they were up to something bigger for the future.
So that's a long-winded way, but I think there's, you know, there's something bigger that's possible for engagement.
Gregg20:35I think it requires that we turn the. receivers on and start asking ourselves the question, is there more here that I could be experiencing am I happy and my work? Do I like my work? Is it a fit with who I am? Where do I find myself in a flow state? Where do I find myself not in a flow state? Just to start asking yourself the questions, where does my passion show up and where does it get defeated in my life? Just to begin to ask that.
Ravi21:07Yeah. So let's let's maybe talk about a couple of those questions. I mean, because you know, I run into a lot of people who are stuck or they're just, they're not feeling that fire, that zest. Yeah. I guess where's the, where's the starting point? I mean, we've talked about one thing, which is just understanding that, yeah, we can, there is more possible here. We Like there is a bigger possibility to be more engaged day to day and work, right? So that might be a starting point.
But then what's next if you were sitting with someone who was just like, oh, man, I'm dying inside here? Yeah.
Gregg21:49Well, my MO, and this is because I'm a reporter, this is my training, I ask a lot of nosy personal questions. And ultimately, that's what I mean when I say turn the receivers on, is start asking yourself some of those possibly inconvenient questions. How do I really feel about my work? work. How do I feel about the quality of the relationships in my life? How do I feel about my health? You know, they're all related. There's no such thing as punching in and punching out of work and it's everything's compartmentalized.
But I think just what I would do is I'd be asking questions. Why do you feel like you're dying on the vine? How does that show up? In other words, what does that look like in your life. How do you feel when you wake up in the morning to go to work? How do you feel when you're at work and when you come home? So I'm going to start asking questions about what are the symptoms? And the word symptom just means a sign. All right. What are the signs and the signals that are making you feel like you're not engaged?
What does that look like in your life? And let's just create a little picture here of what is actually going on. You know, when I ask people, when people call me to ask for consultations, like coaching, like you do. One of the things I do is I ask them to send me a couple of paragraphs about your life, just what you're doing, thinking, and feelings, nothing elaborate, just a sketch of what your life looks and feels like to you at the moment. And even in a couple of paragraphs, no less sometimes a whole page, I can tell so much about what is going on for people just by the way they language their own experience.
You know, and sometimes I'm just helping them connect dots. Do you notice how often you use certain terms that are self-defeating? Sometimes they don't even notice the language that they're using. So to me, I don't know what your approach is, but I asked a lot of nosy questions just to try to generate some data. What does it look like? Yeah,
Ravi23:54you know, you said signs. You're looking for signs. Yeah. Which is really interesting. It's like it's not like we're trying to. create something that's not there. We're just trying to find what's already there. It's very much an uncovering, a connection of the dots. It's looking at the Roar Shack and seeing what's it telling us. It's maybe dusting off some dirt and seeing what's underneath. And there's very much, I mean, we're all human beings. So the, like engagement is there in every moment. And so that's really something that struck me in what you're saying.
Because it's much more of a curiosity fact-finding mission than a let me try to create something which can be daunting. If I had to create something big and new, that's daunting if I'm more just looking at the signs that are already present. I mean, you know they have all those things, look inward to find the answer, but there's something there.
Gregg24:51yeah and it doesn't have to be the big um world-changing decisions that you make the small stuff is where I start you know um I was sitting around with some friends one evening recently, and one of the guys said, you know what the problem is we're not outrageous enough, he said. And I said, so what would you do, Richard, if you were going to be more outrageous? And he thought for a moment, and we thought he was going to come up with something, like you said, kind of, you know, big, like a big, hairy, audacious goal or something.
And what he did instead is he took his hand and he swept it through his hair and it changed it from middle parted and slicked back to side parted, with a cowlick dangling over his forehead, and just instantly transformed him from Richard to Ricardo and he said I would come into work like this that was his being more outrageous. I would come into work like this. Meaning, and this is my approach, look for the small, the small switches. The small changes doesn't have to be the big.
I got to quit my job. I got to leave my marriage. I got to move to India, whatever. You know, it's look for the small opportunities to, to move either toward her away from a sense of engagement or aliveness. The little stuff. And I think the little, the little stuff is really key to opening it up for people. Start small. Don't tip the whole boat over and just start experimenting with where do you feel a little sense of aliveness. What would be out? outrageous for you.
Do those things. Yeah.
Ravi26:32Or maybe you might quit your job like I did and travel for a year. But that insight felt that insight when I have that insight, it was obvious and clear. It wasn't easy to act on, but there was a clarity.
Gregg26:48How long did it take you to act on it?
Ravi26:50So it happened, I mean, it's very, very corny. It happened on my honeymoon, which I delayed because I was so busy. So months after my wedding, I went on a hundred, honeymoon. And I was relaxing on a tropical beach. It's just this corny story, but it was true. And after a week of relaxation, I just had the insight. Wow, the job I'm in was perfect through my 20s, but now my values have shifted. What I'm to is shifted. And I had clarity that where I'm at is no longer the best place.
I didn't know what was next. So that moment of clarity happened. And I actually sat on it for a few weeks and it just it was the signal was there in spite of the noise the noise got really bad in my head the signal was there and then my last day at work that was you know within 90 days I was done um
Gregg27:43you did this without a plan
Ravi27:44B. There was no plan B. Uh, no plan B besides de leverage. I mean, we had bought a house, a second car, I'd gone from living like a monk to living you know, having a nice car in Seattle and nice house and furnished the whole house and all this jazz. And then I realized, whoops, And then just figured it out and we ended up renting the house, selling a second car and backpacking for we thought four or five months, turned into a year and a half and then settled down and reestablished routes and now we moved to Colorado and so, but anyway, there are the small changes.
But what I hear and what you say is and also some people listening will know my story because they've read, I've been open about my transition is the insight. It was, there was a clarity to it and and other people might view it as whoa, that was big, but there was a clarity to that. And so if the small steps are clear, the small take the small steps. Mine happen to be a big one, but I definitely see some truth in what you're saying. Now, I would love to hear from you if you'd be willing to share.
Because you worked at, you were a reporter in Cleveland for about a decade. Cincinnati. Or sorry, sorry, Cincinnati. And then you transitioned after a decade and you became a freelance writer. And then you pivoted and became. So I'd love to hear from you, maybe a pivot point for you in your career. And what were the signs you were following and what that was like, just to share a bit of your own story. Oh, my goodness.
Gregg29:27Yeah, I would say the transition from employment to self-employment started when I was invited to get a job at USA Today. I was at the Enquirer, and Gannett started up, America's first national daily in D.C., called USA Today, and they took 100 reporters from 100 newspapers that they owned and brought them to D.C. with the following deal. So if the paper flies and you fit, you become a journalist in Washington, D.C. If the paper does not fly or you do not fit for some reason, you're guaranteed your job back at whatever paper we took you from.
So you don't get a more elegant job offer than that. And I leapt at it. And I considered it a technicality that I kept all my stuff in Cincinnati for that four-month trial period. I just figured I was going to come back, put my stuff in a truck, turn off the lights, and leave and go to D.C. But it didn't work out that way because I was a terrible match for USA Today. Nobody knew what it was ultimately going to look like, no less that it was going to turn out to be what the Washington Post called News McNuggets.
That's how they described it when they reviewed it. And it was a terrible match, and I was asked to leave before the four months was up. The woman who hired me at the paper had also hired me at the Enquirer. And she said, look, I have some appreciation. for your skills. You're going to be miserable here. Because you're an essay style writer, you're a feature style writer, and this is, we have an editorial rule that no story will be continued on another page. So we're chopping your stuff to bits.
You're miserable, I can tell. Go back. And you get your job where you came from at the Enquirer and then figure it out from there. That was the turning point, because that gave me a quality of desperation I did not come up with on my own to leave the Enquirer, which I'd been wanted to do for five out of those 10 years. I didn't have the courage to do it because loss of a paycheck, loss of a pension, loss of prestige, loss of medical benefits. I mean, never mind that the only reason I was using the medical benefits was my job was making me sick.
But it gave me the desperation to finally make good on the calling I had heard for five years. out of the 10, I was at the Cincinnati paper, which was quit and be a freelance writer, write your own stuff, not what the editors are assigning you. And I went back to Cincinnati and spent the next two years preparing. I did the exact opposite of what you did. I spent two years preparing for what I knew were going to be the rigors of self-employment as a writer.
And that was the big turning point is I had heard the call for five years, and was simply scared to do it, as a lot of people are, especially when it involves losing a regular paycheck.
Ravi32:26So you heard the call. What was, if we could just double click on that? What did that mean for you? So you heard the call. Did you just wake up one day and realize, hey, I want to be a freelance writer?
Gregg32:37No, I wouldn't say it was quite that clear, but I'd be getting lots of messages that I'm not writing the kind of stuff I really want to write here at the paper. and I want to be more national. They wanted me more local. Another sign was I tried to pitch my singles column. That's how I got the job at the Cincinnati paper. I was a singles column. I tried to syndicate it nationally. They wouldn't let
Ravi33:02me. Singles meaning like dating advice kind of for single.
Gregg33:05It wasn't advice column. It was more just a lifestyle column. All different aspects of being single. And it ran for years and years. And I wanted to syndicate it because it was the only, There was only one other singles column in the country at that time. And that was at the Philadelphia Inquirer, but they wouldn't let me do it. And so there were lots of little signs and signals that kept piling up that I was getting restless. And I felt called to play a bigger game in my work, which was more national and international stories.
I wanted to focus on innovation. That was my niche when I became a freelancer. And all those things, they just didn't fit it at a regional paper with a very provincial mindset. And so they just started to pile up. And the wake-up call was when USA-T hit the fan. Got it. That was the
Ravi34:02wake-up call. And so you had the wake-up call, and you did some prep, and then you made the transition. And, of course, it was all sunshine and rainbows after that. Oh,
Gregg34:13yeah, Bluebirds of Happiness, the whole bit.
Ravi34:15So, you know, and again, I've been open with this. I have a blog post around how, you know, my, I'm now four years as an entrepreneur, and I've been open about what it's been like the past couple years, and it's been amazing but also terrifying. Sure, right. I'm curious from your perspective, you know, what was that like? You got the call five years later. You did your prep. You made your move. And what happened?
Gregg34:43Well, amazing and terrifying. It's a good description. Let's see. I was instantly glad that I'd done it and wish I had done it years earlier. And that is a story I've heard with nauseating regularity in my line of work, probably years too, I would imagine. I should have done this years ago. Because it was suddenly the fit I was looking for and the freedom. I mean, it was the free and freelancing. And so I got to just plunge in, just like Joseph Campbell used to say, the mythologist, if you follow your bliss, you will have your bliss.
Nothing else is guaranteed. You know, I mean, well, there's a book out there called Do What You Love, the Money Will Follow. I don't know if you've run across this. It's a really good book, actually. Do What You Love, The Money Will Fall. Well, she never does say when the money will follow, or how much, or even whether it'll follow you. So I ran into that aspect of it. I had my bliss, but I went ripping through my savings account as well, which I was told I was going to do.
That's why it took me two years. I wanted to be out in one. And one of the things I did during that prep period was I conducted informational interviews with people who were doing what I wanted to be doing. Those, to me, are make or break activities. Talk to people who are where you want to be and find out how did you get to. there, what it take, what do you wish somebody had told you, and ask him about the money. And all the freelancers I spoke to, and they were all different kinds of freelancers, not just writers, said, you better have two years worth savings in the bank, which was a bummer, because I didn't have that.
And it made me extend the deadline another year, you know, but I went through the savings in those first couple of years, like a lot of companies, I went into the red before I went into the black, all right? But I was out in San Francisco, where I wanted to be on the West Coast. I was doing the work I loved. I was living a low-rent lifestyle, and I was loving every minute of it, and I never once regretted having done it. And I've been doing it since the mid-80s.
Never once.
Ravi37:03You said that that's a common thing you hear from people, and you've done workshops all over the country, maybe the world, or working with people, helping them uncover their passion and callings. And so you've heard a lot of people say this. I wish I did this sooner. Yeah.
Gregg37:20I wish I'd done it sooner. But I understand and I really have a deep appreciation for what, well, you and I are doing with our life's work. It's encouraging people to take risks and to be courageous and to, um, you know, be aligned and engaged with who they really are, that does take courage. And having gone through it myself, I have a much deeper appreciation for what it is I'm asking other people to do. Right,
Ravi37:54right. Now, one of the, there's a couple topics that come up time and time again. And I just want to get your take on it. Okay. One is this idea of, you know, having a mission, having a goal, which sort of in a way relates to discovering your passion, you know, many of us go to go to school with the idea of what are we going to be when we grow up. What do we want to align to? What's our major in college? We're always looking at, you know, for me, it was I want to go work on Wall Street.
So I majored in finance. And I kept thinking of this B-Hag, this audacious goal, who am I going to be when I'm 40 or whatever? And what's the career going to be like? And, And at the same time, it seems like, again, there are the signs, there are the signals that just show up in spite of our goals. And I'm just curious from your perspective, how important is it for people to have, like, a career goal or an idea of where they want to be? And what's the rule, how important is it and, you know, or not, having a goal versus, say, surrendering to what life has to offer?
Yeah.
Gregg39:01Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. I've never been somebody who's made five-and-tenure goals, what that's worth. But this isn't to say there's anything wrong with visioning or goal-setting. I've just never been one of those people. I don't know, years and years ago, I had a friend say, best way to make God laugh, declare your five-year plan. You know, just as a tip of the hat to, you know, the way life does unfold. but I think there's two questions that have animated my own journey. One of them is what's right for me, but the other is where am I willing to be led?
And there's something about those two questions that have been kind of how I've maneuvered myself through life is asking both of those questions, repeatedly, ongoingly. I don't, you know, some people, it works really great to set big goals or even small ones, you know, I mean, for millions of years, I had to do this every single day of my life. And, you know, they get things done. I mean, you learn this as a reporter. Deadlines get stuff done. I'm not about it. And on the other hand, I think maybe a question that can get lost in the sauce with all that is, what's really important for me to do?
How can I use my gifts to their maximum in the time that I have given to me, acknowledging that I've got to use by date? You know how can I be of service? You know what I'm saying. I think that question is increasingly important as I get older and for any of your clients or listeners who might be, let's say, over 50 people like Carl Jung and the psychologist to Eric Erickson both talk about this thing called generativity, meaning that past midlife, if you are not devoting yourself to generativity, meaning helping the generations coming up from behind you, you're missing, they said, the primary developmental point of elderhood.
And that's, there's something to that about how can I give back? How can I be, really be at service. And that question, I don't know that I have it as a particular goal. Yeah. But it informs the decisions that I do make.
Ravi41:37Yeah. I mean, that question definitely puts me of the mind of just getting out of my own way because I'm thinking about how can I serve, how can I help? Let's, which if I'm not getting the answer asking myself, what's in it for me? What do I want? Let me turn that around and if I get some movement there. So I can see that as a powerful sort of question to play with. Now, the other thing outside of goals, and we've sort of hit on this, but I just want to maybe tie it up a little bit, is, you know, Cal Newport, someone who, you know, I'm a big fan of a lot of his writing, deep work and so good.
They can't ignore you. And, you know, I run into many people who read his work and come away with the sentiment that passion doesn't matter. And that when it comes to their career, the way you get passionate is by just getting good at something. So pick a skill that has high demand, get good at it, and passion will follow as opposed to the other way around. And many people come and say, hey, so I should just focus on building a skill, being productive, and then I'll learn to love it.
What would you say to someone who approaches you with that?
Gregg42:56I would say maybe, maybe not. I mean, you know, just pick a skill that's in demand. I mean, you know, what if that skill doesn't happen to be something you like doing? Just because it's in demand doesn't mean you. you're going to suddenly come to love it because you get good at it. I don't know. I think there's, I'm skeptical of that. I think there should be some innate feeling that this is something that I really enjoy doing. I think there's something to be said for success breeds its own kind of energy and you get really good at something and you tend to like the feeling of mastery.
history. I mean, I get that. But I wouldn't just pick something that's in demand. You know, you know, we live in a culture where there's one job in the arts for every 10 jobs in tech. You know, if you're the artistic type of personality, you're not going to say, well, I'm going to, I'm going to become really good at social media. I don't really like social media, but Cal tells me that I'm going to come to love it and be passionate about it because it's in demand.
and because I might get really good at it. I don't buy it. I put his link on my website because I want people to have all the whole spectrum, but I don't really buy it. Yeah.
Ravi44:26Yeah, I mean, there's something in me that, you know, I'd love to boil life down into a simple answer of, yeah, build a skill and passion will follow. But I think it's a much more messy reality in that. well, let's pick an area where you have skill and passion. Yeah.
Gregg44:45I had somebody in college say to me, figure out what you love to do, Greg, and figure out a way to get somebody to pay you to do it. Right. And I remember how that struck me at that time. Yeah.
Ravi44:58Yeah, it's like the intersection between passion, purpose, and pay. Where do I have interest? How can I serve? And will someone pay me for it? And I sort of think those three in that order. I mean, I need interest first. I need to serve, and you could flop those two, maybe depending on where you are in your career. And then the pay, that's also negotiable, I guess, based on individual needs. And
Gregg45:23besides, as for the pay, in my opinion, money costs too much. In other words, the price people are willing to pay to have it is way too high. That's just my sense. So tell me more about that. I just think people are so terrified of not being able to pay the rent with their passions that they don't do them because they won't pay the bills. And they sell themselves out and they sell their souls short by putting money above all else. That's what I mean by money costs just too much.
Money costs too much. Yeah, the cost to your soul and your psyche and your health. lots and lots of people out there trading off health for productivity. Not a great idea. Right.
Ravi46:15And, you know, I feel like, I feel like we're just getting started with this conversation. But of course, we also, I know you have things to do and we're sort of up that time. And I just want to say again, you know, you have an amazing knack at writing. And I think this book, for anyone that's just curious about building a great career, it's just a fantastic read. I'm actually, it's one of the books in this day and age where I read a lot on the Kindle.
I'm glad to have a hard copy because there are, you know, stories and chapters here that I can see myself going back to. So, again, thank you for putting this out into the world. And if people want to connect with you, learn more about your work, where should they go? Oh,
Gregg46:57world headquarters should be this website, www.gregglevoi.com, 2Gs.
Ravi47:05Okay. And you've got vital signs and then callings. Those are the two books. How would you differentiate the two?
Gregg47:12Oh, I would say callings is probably more about finding a passion. And vital signs is more about living passionately. It's more about really the scale or the stance of passionate life.
Ravi47:26Wonderful. Well, thanks again and hope we get a chance to talk again soon. Thanks so much, Ravi. To find out more about what Greg Lavoie's up to, visit his website at gregglevoi.com. That's Greg with two G's, G-R-E-G-G-G-G-L-E-G-G-L-E-V-O-Y.com. And of course, if you enjoyed today's conversation, please share this podcast with your friends and feel free to leave us an honest review on iTunes. It really helps us out a ton. Well, until next time, have a great day.
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