Sherpa John Lacroix: Running For My Life [Podcast Ep. #7]

Transcribed from the episode audio by AI, so it may contain mistakes.

Ravi0:19Welcome to the Motivated Life podcast. I'm Ravi Raman. On today's episode, I'll be speaking with Sherpa John LaCroixir. Sherpa John's a fixture in the Colorado ultra-running community. He's a very accomplished ultra-runner in his own right. He's also the leader of Human PotentialRunning.com. It's an organization that's really designed to help people find and discover their human potential through running. He hosts a half-dozen or more really, really beautiful but challenging runs in the Colorado mountains. If you're ever in Colorado and you feel like running a race that's going to test you and challenge you, I highly recommend checking out one of human potential running's events.

I had the chance to volunteer at the Silver Hills 100-miler last year and also participate in one of Sherpa John's events and they live up to the expectation. They are gorgeous. They're well supportive, well supported. They've got a great vibe and they are very, very challenging. Now, on this episode, we cover a lot of ground. We talk about Sherpa John, his history with running. We talk about how much of running long distances is mental versus physical. And we talk about his recent accomplishment of going on a really big adventure, attempting to run 305 miles from the lowest point in Colorado to the highest, all to raise awareness and money for mental illness.

So we go into that in detail. We talk about some of Sherpa John's struggles with mental illness himself and just chat about what it's like to be an ultramarathoner and explore your potential out on the trails. So I really hope you enjoy this episode. And if you do, please do leave a review and rating on iTunes. I'm learning that it's through the reviews and ratings that iTunes and Google Play will then surface the podcast to other people who are browsing. So please take a second. Even on your smartphone, you can just tap and give it a quick five-star or whatever you feel is appropriate review and type in a few words of encouragement.

It would mean a lot to me. Well, that's about it. I say we get on with it. I bring you Sherpa John. Sherpa John. How are you doing? I'm great. I'm great. How are you? Really good. How are the legs feeling?

John2:57Oh, they're tired. They're very tired,

Ravi2:59yeah. Well, you have every right to be tired. Yeah. And we'll talk a little bit about what that's about, but we're joined here by your partner in crime. I am.

John3:07This is Hollis Lyman. Hello, everyone.

Ravi3:10Yeah. So, John, this has been a, a. big year for you. I mean, there's a lot of things we're going to touch on, but I want to start with the big adventure that you just wrapped up a few weeks ago. Running across Colorado, maybe explain a little bit what this 300 plus mile adventure was all about. I'm curious what motivated you to do it, and then we'll talk a little bit about what it was like to run from the lowest point in Colorado to the highest point.

John3:43Yeah, so in September, I took on this giant challenge of trying to run 305 miles across Colorado, from the state's lowest point to the state's highest point. And the, excuse me, the lowest point in the state is where the Ericory River crosses over into Kansas. It's actually the highest state low point of all of the United States, believe it or not. So, standing out there on the Colorado, Kansas border, literally in the middle of nowhere. And as I like to describe to people, this middle of nowhere that you think of in your head when you think of the middle of nowhere, it's another level of nowhere.

There's nothing there. Just prairie rattlesnake skins. This river doesn't even exist. It dried up decades ago. It's just a spot. But the idea was to run 305 miles west uphill to the highest point in the state, which is Mount Albert, also the second highest point in the lower 48. To my knowledge, through the research that I performed in the months leading up to the adventure, it's not something that's ever been done before.

Ravi4:59Mount Albert isn't it's not just a hill right like I was I'm from the East Coast right and a mountain is like oh it's a couple thousand feet of vertical maybe tops out at 2,000 feet this is different

John5:10yeah it's it was four and a half miles uphill the hike of Mount Albert so the end of the run four and a half miles uphill with 4,500 feet of elevation gain and it's a 14

Ravi5:23or as we're saying Colorado 14

John5:25,000 it is it's a it is a it is a it is a it is a it is all a mountain. It is a mountain. So what motivated me to take on the run is the desire to find out what's possible. I've been running 100-mile races for 10 years now. And in 2008, I became the first person to ever run across New Hampshire at its widest points. That's where I'm originally from. And that run was 125 miles from end to end. And I did it in one swoop.

This was vastly different. This was, I managed to run 202 miles in four days, eight hours, and 56 minutes. So I averaged around 40 miles a day, slept every night, really different adventure, but still a lot more painful, a lot more time-consuming. But the motivation really was to not only see what I'm capable of, but bring awareness to mental health issues in our society.

Ravi6:25Hmm. Now, this wasn't just, so you end up running over 200 miles. Right. Right. Most people think of a marathon as being a long distance run. You're doing, you know, 40 miles every day for multiple days. And you're doing it for a deeper purpose that drives you. I mean, what is it that made you want to say, okay, this is a project, an adventure, a mission, a purpose that is worth me putting in, you know, you probably shed some blood on this run. what is it about it that makes it such a passionate cause for you, mental illness?

John7:01You know, when people think about everything that I've accomplished this year in terms of ultramarathon running, which is a lot. I've ran 100 miles three different times. I ran 100K, three other times. That's a lot. Most people would take all of that on over the course of three or four years. So I did it all over the course of five or six. months. It was a lot. But people don't take into account the other life adventures that I had this year. I got divorced. My kids ended up moving to Florida with their mom, which is 2,000 miles away from me.

My business, which is the Human Potential Running Series, we also had a bit of a down year, which I think was a product of life, things that were going on in my life. I had a lot to overcome emotionally and mentally throughout the year. And I suffer from major depressive disorder and anxiety. And my mental illness can very much get in my way. And what I mean by in my way is this morning, believe it or not, it's one of those mornings. I'm considered high functioning.

This morning was one of those mornings that I didn't want to get out of bed. I could have, I could still be in there right now. I mean, it's 10 o'clock. You and I are recording this. I could definitely still be in bed for another hour. So getting out of bed each day for me is sometimes a major chore. But I do it. And I do it because I have work to do. And a lot of my work is trying to get other people to realize what they're capable of if they just put their mind to it.

And so that's really what the adventure ended up being for me was not just bringing awareness towards mental illness that I'm not defined by my disease. I am not my disease. And my disease is no different than cancer or diabetes or any other kind of disease you would be diagnosed with by a doctor. It's not my fault. It's some cases it's genetic. It's something that I have to deal with every day. It makes me one quirky SOB, but I get it done. And so running every day for five days.

You know, five days. getting up every day and going for a run, not knowing how far I would get, not knowing what was going to happen by the end of the day, just getting up and moving was a huge testament to my battle, all of the battles that I fought this year, physically, mentally, emotionally.

Ravi9:42Now, you've been running for a long time. You said you ran across New Hampshire. When did you get the endurance bug or this idea that, look, you can go further than just the neighborhood 5K, or when did you first get involved in, whether it's ultras or endurance sport?

John10:00You know, in 2004 I made a documentary film on hiking New Hampshire's 4000 peaks, 4000-foot peaks called 48. There's 48 of them on the list. It's just like Colorado's 14, or list of which is 54. I made this documentary film and in making the film, I wondered if anybody had ever done the peaks the fastest, and I thought man, like somebody doing all these peaks the fastest took my dad 14 years to do these things, like you know. Uh, I bet it's got to be like a month and come to find out it was three and a half days and it just blew my mind and so I had to meet these guys.

Who are these guys that can do this? One of the guys, his name is ted cave dog Kaiser, and he's one of the first ever finishers of the barclay marathons, which is now famous. But the documentary film on this is

Ravi10:49a Netflix documentary yeah and you've done you've participated in that crazy I have I don't know if you'd call it a run it's like a bushwhack no

John10:57It's not a run, it's a. It's a. It's the most fun I never had. Have you finished a lap there? I finished one complete loop. Okay, in fact, across the room here on my wall is a poster which has my map from the Barclay and every page that I pulled out of all 13 books. Okay, my bib number. It's one of my prize possessions, believe or not. So I interview, interviewed Ted Cave, Dog Kieser and the guy that held the current speed record, the guy that broke his record in New Hampshire.

And I asked both of them, what do you have to do to be an ultra runner? What does it take? And neither one of them mentioned running. They each said, you just need to be stubborn and able to put up with a lot of discomfort. And I had that down pat. So for me, it was, I'm going to do this. I couldn't run a mile. And that's what my girlfriend at the time said to me. We were driving home from one of the interviews. And I said, I'm going to become an ultra-runner.

I'm going to run hundreds of miles. And she's like, you can't even run a mile. I'm like, yeah, I know, but you've got to start somewhere. So the next day, I started running. And to be honest, I had no idea that I would be in this sport 12 years later. I had no idea I would have ever run 23 runs of 100 miles or more. I'm one of less than a handful of people who can say that in the entire country.

Ravi12:20And so you've run long distances. You're also a race director with your company, and you've witnessed people, you know, going into the depths of who they are and exploring their own. Human potential is the name of your business, which I think is fascinating. And maybe we can talk a little bit about, from your journey of you running, what was it that made you say, what was that moment where you said it, look, This is what I want to do. I want to make this a career, a vocation.

I want to help other people experience ultras and endurance activities. Because you strike me as someone who hasn't followed the typical path in terms of normal career. You've made this your life. Yeah. So what was the trigger point for that? You know,

John13:07I went back to college a third time. I went to the University of New Hampshire where I started working towards a bachelor's of science in kinesiology, outdoor education. So that's experiential education. And as part of that program, I had to write a paper my first year on my philosophy of outdoor education, and my entire paper was on the concept of human potential. During my time at UNH, that's when I ran across New Hampshire and I did it again in 2009, just for funzies. But I also started race, directing up in Vermont.

I helped put on a series of races called peak races. I was the assistant race director. I was more of an apprentice, but in 2008 I directed the first ever 200-mile ultramarathon in the Western Hemisphere up in Vermont And I walked away from that, Believe it or not. I came up with the idea for a race called the death race, And the death race is Sounds like a wonderful event. It's not Lots of fun, But the Spartan races were born out of the death race, and so I was there at the ground level at the beginning of Spartan races.

But the whole idea was this um give and take between ego and non-ego. Like the way we designed that first death race was those who finished the race were the people with the biggest egos. So if you had no ego, you would know sure well when to quit and you could still reap. You probably would benefit more from quitting and having a positive experience than getting to the end and just being miserable through the whole thing you know like. So we were like. It was the first time that I was really.

Playing around with the psychology of participants. Now coming out to Colorado, I created a fat ass series just

Ravi15:11explain what fat ass is for people that

John15:13aren't yeah so a fat ass is a glorified group run Basically, most times it's an ultra-distance run, no aid, no fees, no awards, no shirts, no whining. And I design them deliberately to be very hard. They're the training grounds. It's the proving grounds. It's where you can come out and train with us and get yourself ready for the year that you have ahead of you. So fat asses typically happen in the winter. Suddenly I was averaging, I started with me and one other person. And then I had the same 14 people coming out, then the same 40 people coming out, until I started averaging 100 runners per fat ass.

It was huge. And I had a group of friends actually throw an intervention. They sat me down in a living room at a friend's house and convinced me that I just need to cut the shit and become a race director because this is what I was meant to do. And I listened, and they were right. So here I am.

Ravi16:12Yeah, here you are. So you host races, you do the fat-ass series, you do 50K, 50-mile, all distances, timed events, 100 miles. You know, and I had the chance, I had signed up for your 100-mile event last year, ended up getting injured and not racing, but ended up crewing at an aid station. And that was eye-opening for me to see what people go through 30 miles, 60, 6.000. miles, 70 miles into a 100-miler, and you've witnessed that quite a bit because you've paced people, you've run hundreds, you've been a race director, you know, people are probably wondering how much of it is physical, how much of it is mental.

These are people who have maybe never even run a marathon. Like, do I have to be a superhuman athlete to run a hundred-miler? No. No, absolutely not. So what is it that gets someone from mile 50 to mile 100 when they're hurting, when you know, they're not sure they can do it.

John17:15Running 100 miles or more, I believe, is 90% mental. The 10% physical is really as simple as left-right repeat. Your brain has cruise control, autopilot. If you just repeat the same motions over and over again for an extended period of time, your brain will take over and understand that, okay, this is exactly, what we're supposed to be doing, because this is what my person tells me we're supposed to be doing. But there's power in that. What it's saying is, you have power over your brain. And this is research that Hollis and I are working on, that we believe that individuals can realize their true potential as human beings.

They can self-actualize, which as Maslow taught us is our whole purpose here, just through the power of thought. And so I really believe that running 100 miles, 90% of it is convincing yourself that you can do it. It's planning to overcome the obstacles to face and embrace and overcome adversity. These are all mental things. And the first step is believing that you can. And if you don't believe that you can, then you shouldn't even start. You wouldn't start. But the fact that you do is what gets you to the starting line.

And it's through the entire event, the entire 100 miles. Or when I ran across Colorado, I had no idea if I could run 300 miles. I'd never run that far before, but I was willing to find out. And so over the course of four or five days, I was increasingly convincing myself that I could do it to the point that at mile 202 where I stopped, I didn't stop because I couldn't do it. I knew I could. In fact, I'm going to try again. And I will do it.

Ravi19:12Why did you stop?

John19:13The weather. We had early season snow storms in the high country and another one was coming in. And so I had like the goal wasn't to be a hero to run all 300 miles and then hike Albert in ridiculous conditions. Just get the helicopter ready. Now it was to get from the lowest point to the highest point because the top of the mountain is a lot better than the bottom. And so for me it was I got to go to Albert. There's another storm coming in.

Let's just stop here and then go hike them out. mountain. Now, think about that. I'm a human being, regular guy, just a regular guy, and sorry, I like Fargo reference, just a regular human being who had to decide to stop running at 200 miles so that I could go hike a mountain. Now, I think some people, most people, would be disappointed in that. But for me, it was, I don't know another badass on this planet who could ever say they did that. Yeah. And so that feeds into that mental peace.

Ravi20:18The power of thought, yes, is what you're saying. I mean, there's incredible power in our thinking, you know, and in hearing you say that, it's like we have, we have a special effects department in our mind that blows the socks off of what Hollywood or Bollywood could ever come up with. How are we using it? I mean, how are we, I mean, that's what I'm, is that, Sort of what you're touching on. That is exactly

John20:43it. There is an unlimited supply of thought in your brain, right? We think nonstop all day, every waking. Even when we're asleep, we're thinking, conjuring up dreams, some realistic, most not realistic, but we can think that up. And so inside of our brains is this unlimited well of thought that if we could just tap into, Like when I grew up, my mom said, she told me countless times. You can do anything you put your mind to, honey. And for a long time, I was like, that's what's just what mom says.

That's what mom is supposed to say. She's blowing smoke up my butt. But then I started to realize as I got older, it's like, what if she doesn't even realize that what she's saying is actually true, that I really can do anything that I put my mind to? Yeah.

Ravi21:33Yeah, I mean, okay, during your 200 miles, I'm guessing it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. I'm guessing you weren't just like I'm a rock star, I'm gonna crush this thing, or were you? I mean, what? Was there a low point? Where was it? And what did you do? Because you didn't stop after whatever that low point was. Maybe walk us through that?

John21:54i'm gonna let go let hollis talk sure for a minute yeah she came out every day. She was out there every day. So basically, she would go to work and school and do her normal routine, and then at the end of her day, she would come and find me somewhere on the eastern plains of Colorado. And she saw a whole collection of Johns, for

Ravi22:15sure. And Hollis, you have a unique perspective, too, because you're a grad student in human performance, sports psychology, right?

John22:20Correct. So I would say Wednesday was the low day, and I'll let her describe.

Ravi22:26Yes. I would agree with Wednesday was the low day. But I saw you every day. So the first day that I came out, you were way out in the western or eastern plains, and it had been muddy. You had slid almost all day, and you were frustrated, but you knew what you were doing. And you were just out there. We just got going. We started talking. Everything was okay. We saw stars. We saw a creepy haunted house that you made me go next to. I was terrified.

I'm picturing an old barn, It's all. Yeah, yeah, It's like an old church, Okay, And I think the windows were broken out And like it was. It was super creepy. So we went and investigated that, Because we have time. All we're doing out there is time. Got to a spot And that was a place we were done. Eight went to bed. Everything was okay. It was just It was rough, But it was exactly what you expect From a normal race. It was just rough. Tuesday was pretty similar and Wednesday, like all the wheels were starting to fall off.

Like, he was an immense pain. He had what we thought was a stress fracture in his foot, which was changing his stride, which was making other things start to hurt. So that was just every single step was just excruciating pain. And then on top of that, it was just a long day engaging with, you know, thousands of people talking about mental illness, but not only that, talking about it on Facebook live and on social media, right. Yep, social media, but talking about his own personal stories and some of the stories that are the most angering and frustrating stories he has to connect with other people, but it's also a reminder of how poorly he's been treated sometimes or how poorly, you know, in a large way that other humans treat you, treat each other.

And that's always hard to remember is that sometimes life isn't so kind, People aren't so kind, And so I show up at night and it was. It was just a whole different kind of jaw. He was convinced that his sleeping bag was soaking wet. It was so uncomfortable. His body senses were just heightened to the extreme. He was extremely uncomfortable, just you know, sobbing because he couldn't get comfortable And his mind was sort of spiraling. So his bag was a little bit wet like, but only really where his body was, because he was wet.

And so, and telling him it's not wet, like it's just you, he was like not believing me. So he swapped sleeping bags. I slept in his bag, fine, because it's not wet. And when you woke up the next morning, like he felt like it's, like it's barely wet. It's wet because it got rolled up and like left, not because it was like soaked by any means. But his body senses were just so freaked out that he he couldn't even tell what reality was in some way.

So that was an interesting place, but he got up the next morning and he kept running. But so that was a low point, right. But then you, you didn't give up. You didn't say I ran 100 miles. You're probably well over 100 miles, john at.

John25:48that point i think it was around one uh i mean 150 someone

Ravi25:52could say hey i've already run over a hundred

John25:54i've run further than i'd ever run before call it good let's go you

Ravi25:59know go to Mount Albert or whatever but you didn't and I'm curious what like what's the difference there why did you stick with it versus I had

John26:07The time, like I had all week, I'd planned to have all week, and so for me it like time is a made up thing. It's something that we use to limit ourselves. It's not something that we use to do things or figure things out. It's a limiting factor. Time, just like money and the value of money, they're all things that we've made up, we've conjured up in our head, we've added value to because we feel like it adds value to our lives. But the reality is neither time nor money adds value to anything.

They're just made up things, and so for me, being out there, it was ignoring those made up things, like I just, you know, get up the next day and I could quit here, but that's not what I'm trying to do. Like I still have a few days that I could reach people. I still have a few days that I can continue to talk about my message and get people to understand mental illness from a different perspective. I could still. I still have a couple days to remember people we've lost to mental illness.

I still have a few days to tell other people's stories. I have work to do And so for me, I took it on as my job. Like that week it wasn't a vacation and that's what people think oh, you're taking a running vacation like no, it was work, this was my job. My job wasn't just to go as far as I possibly could on foot, walking or running. My job was to raise awareness for mental illness and to showcase what is possible.

Ravi27:47you know john in hearing you share what strikes me is you were running not for yourself but for something bigger, for people, for your cause, and for yourself, of course. I mean, is that, were you, I was on Facebook, so I was watching. I mean, were you, was that giving you energy? Was that helping you connect to this purpose and get you out of bed on Wednesday morning?

John28:07Yeah, you know, I did a lot of Facebook living, and I think the me on camera was definitely different than the me off camera, because on camera, I had to be on. Like, I've got to be on, I've got to make sure my message is clear. I've got to share this message. I've got to reach as many people as I possibly can. And yeah, that was a big part of it. But also, for me, the year that I just had and the myriad of things that have been said about me and by other people, people who just don't understand, people who are void of empathy, for me, it was also a lot of, I'll show them, I'll show them who I am, I'll show them what I'm capable of.

I'll also show them that I'm not who they think I am, that my mental illness doesn't define me like they think it does. Like, yeah, I had a lot to prove. And so that double-edged sword definitely kept me going every day.

Ravi29:06And then you, after a double century, you then... Took a day off. You took a day off, you hopped in a car, but then you went to...

John29:15Not out, yeah. So basically... Then you

Ravi29:17snow-shoed, basically, up a mountain in the snow.

John29:19Right, we didn't have have any snow shoes. We post hold, Oh, you post hold. So it was way steep snow, probably, I don't know 60% of the way, everything above tree line, And so just imagine having run 200 miles And then now you have to take exaggerated steps, much like the crazy walk people on Monty Python, like you know how they would walk crazy on that show But basically you've got to lift your leg up and out of the snow. So you got to lift your leg as high as you can and then extend it forward and put it back in another hole and sink all the way back down to your crotch and then repeat it with the other leg and do this for two and a half miles uphill at 13 plus thousand feet elevation, like it ended up being the hardest mountain I've ever climbed.

Wow.

Ravi30:08wow you know so I want to I want to I want to tap into your brain and get some of the knowledge and experience you've you've you've had, you know, and maybe a way we can do this. I'm curious if you can go back to, what year did, was it 2004 when you started, sort of started down this journey? If you can go back and whisper in your ear and give old John some advice. Now, let's talk about this in a couple of different areas. Sure.

Let's first talk about it, just running. Right? So just running. And then we'll talk a little bit about business, because you're a business owner, right? So you're, the name of this podcast is Motivated Life. It's about people who are aspiring to live a Motivated Life, right? And I see you as someone who's doing that. Right. So we can talk about it in those dimensions. But just from a practical running standpoint, what are a couple things you've learned along the way that you would love to whisper in your ear back in 2004?

John31:07There's no reason to be a hero. You know, these races aren't going anywhere. They're always going to, we're always going to have races like this. fact we're going longer we're getting bored with a hundred miles now there's 200 milers in the country like said it some people would say there's a trend we're not quite at the status of calling it a trend yet you've

Ravi31:30hosted a two did

John31:31you race yeah the first time yeah we had one finisher you know i had five starters one finisher um but it's like it's some like 122,000th of 1% of the U.S. population has ever run 200 miles. That's not a lot of people. That's 145 people, to be exact. It's like it's not a lot of people. But, you know, you don't need to be a hero. I think I would whisper to myself that what I tell everybody nowadays is if you are constantly training balls to the walls and racing balls to the walls, you're not going to be in this sport for a very long time.

your body is still very much in control of who you are and what you can do. Sure, it's the most amazing machine we've ever known, own and use on a daily basis. But it does have some physical limitations. Like if you are just constantly racing and constantly, like the year I just had, you do some damage to your limbic system. And you can acquire something that we call chronic fatigue syndrome. And it's really hard to overcome. And so reminding myself to take breaks, relax, it's just running.

It's not life or death. They're not going anywhere. These people are all going to be here. There is no fear of missing out. You can still volunteer. You can still play a role. You don't always have to be in the race. That's probably the biggest advice I would give myself from the beginning. And every four or five years, my body reminds me that that's really sound advice.

Ravi33:10okay chill out a little bit it's just running yeah is there anything you've learned from a you know tools and tips perspective that just pragmatically helps you run and stay healthy maybe how you train or yeah i just eat or anything else that seems to work for

John33:26you i really listen to my body like the last couple of months um my diet has gone to absolute crap because i don't care right now i'm just eating everything and anything that i don't normally eat throughout the year because I'm not training for anything. I have no goals. I'm just trying to be a normal guy, and my body is just like, dude, this is not working for me. So I have some GI distress right now and whatever, but the more that I focus on living a healthy me, the more you really focus on that, without doing much, just the healthier you'll feel.

So I try to use that in training, and I try to remember it every day, and even though I haven't done a good job the last month or two. But the more I focus on living a very purposefully healthful life, the more healthy I feel on all fronts, physically, mentally, and emotionally. And that's like, you know, people have said, like, you can manage your diabetes, your depression and anxiety. by just eating healthier. Now, most people would be like, that's not true. You need a happy pill.

Like, oh, no, it's true. Like, the more good you put into your body, the more good your body gives you. And I definitely have found that out over the last year, year and a half. Now, that's after 12 years of running altruism, still finding things like that out. Like, it never ends. Like, it's a constant experiment of one. Yeah,

Ravi35:03yeah. Now, Hollis, I actually want to ask you the same question. Then I want to come back, John, to your business side, what you've learned because, Hollis, you're a runner as well. Maybe share a little bit about what you've been up to and then also what you would whisper in your ear back when you first started running and training. So I've always been a distance runner that got decided for me in middle school. You sprint for 40 yards and if you're slow, you're a distance runner and that's where it started.

But I also just found that the longer that I ran, the better it was for me, the quieter, you know, my mind will get. And John can attest I have trouble sitting still for sure. And being able to just continue to move, quiets my mind down. It quiets my, you know, insane amount of energy down. So I've done, I've done a couple ultras. The longest I've run was actually at one of John's fat asses where I met. him. And you just came back from a 50K.

Yep, just came back from 50K. I've done that 64-mile is the furthest I've run. I tried run, rabbit run last year. And that's 100-mile. Yes, 100-mile epic DNF. So I'll be trying 100 again this year. I've done an Iron Man. I've done cycling-only races. I've swam, you know, ultra-long distances, just anything I can do where I can keep moving. So I think that I would give myself two solid pieces of advice as a younger person. And the first one would be to tell me that this is my place.

I think there was always a complex growing up in Colorado. People are fast out here. And so I grew up with the fast kids, and they ran 5Ks far faster than I ever could. But when it was our long run day, I ran further than everybody on our team, including all of the boys. And that was my place. And I think that I always felt misplaced in that. And I think that just some advice that is okay for you to be in that place. I would have probably found ultra sooner.

And I think I would have been happier with the way that I ran. And the other piece would be some rest days. Spotting a trend here. Yes. I'm actually a coach and a personal trainer. And I give great advice on taking rest days and taking care of your body. and then I continue not to do that until this last year. I did a great job, I think, of really harnessing what rest days can do for your body. And I had an incredible year, just no injuries, randomly ran, you know, Indian Creeks, 50.

And I had not been training, you know, the longest run before that was, I don't know, another 50K race that we randomly threw in. So there was no rhyme or reason to the training later on in my year. and I was okay. I didn't get injured because I rested and I took care of my body. Yeah. Yeah, that's really, I mean, I'm just going to plus one on that one with breast and listening to your body. So thanks for sharing that. No, John, you've built, I mean, you're a race director, but you're building a community from what I've been able to witness.

You know, it's a group of runners who are running not just to set PRs. They're running to explore themselves. I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, what you wish you knew. in starting your business what you've learned and maybe you know I'd love to hear maybe a couple things that you're like wow that was really good and then a couple things that huh I learned and you know had I known when I first started it would have made life easier

John38:48You know, I think, as a race director and a business owner, I have a vision in my head of what I want other people to get out of my series, and, by and large, a lot of my work seeks to accomplish that. Like, I have a vision of what a kind of experience I want people to have at my races, whether they finish or not. There are a lot of things that I do have control over to that end. There's a lot that I don't, and I think I would definitely tell my younger me that, um, changing the world doesn't happen overnight and it's not something you can force.

And I think that there have been times in my life as a race director and a business owner that I have tried to force it. I've tried to force feed to people. This is what you're going to believe and this is exactly the experience you're going to have or else. And that's not how it works. I think over the last year, I've really realized through my own experiences especially and just kind of calming down and coming at it from a more mature angle. that it's not up to me.

It's up to each individual, the experience that they have and what they get out of it. And that's, I mean, I can provide them with the tools. I can do some front-loading. I can facilitate learning. But ultimately, the experience and learning is on them. And it really should be because I'm trying to empower people through athletic accomplishments. And, you know, when you are trying to. to empower people. Empowerment is not, I mean, I can empower people with my words. I can empower people with my ideas, but really the work is on them.

And so I would tell myself more to let people do their own work and you just help them.

Ravi40:46Yeah, let people do their own work and you just help them. You know, just as we winded up here, I'm curious for you, this has been a big year. You had, you know, your summer of slam was that, and then rolling into this, you know, run across Colorado. I'm curious, what's on the horizon for you? Besides rest, obviously. And some cookies, some holiday cookies. Yeah, we've got cookies

John41:09and cooking. You know, I'm going to try to run across Colorado again. I know I can do it. That's my running goal right now. And then some more races, I'm sure. Travel more, meet more people, hear more people's stories. But Hollis and I are working on a very important research project together. through the Human Potential Running Series and her work as a grad student and picking up old work that I performed 10 years ago in experiential education while going through UNH. And what we found is that we're writing a new theory.

And the theory is it's we don't have a name for it yet, It's still very rudimentary, but it's still in the beginning stages. We have training wheels on still, but the theory is it's our theory of human potential and self-actualization, and through our research we found that people really can accomplish anything they put their mind to. And we're trying to prove that from a psychological perspective and also a physiological and biological perspective as well, and we think we can do that. We think we can do it through spec scans, eegs, fMRIs like some really heavy duty testing on people's brains to show what electrical movement is happening within the brain when we put our minds of something.

So

Ravi42:42can you give me, and maybe we can even come back and have a more in-depth conversation about it when you're ready, but if you can give us a little glimpse into what it is or the executive summary of what is the theory about? I will attempt to explain. So there are several different concepts in psychology that encourage people to self-actualize, but there is no direction on how to do that. So Maslow has a theory out there that is steps and things that you need to self-actualize.

We actually completely disagree with his needs. But there's still not steps. They're still just, in your life, you need to be safe. In your life, you need to have your physiological needs met, which to us, again, does not make sense. So we're trying to come up with basically a formula that we can give people that's incredibly accessible as a step towards how you always get to a place where you're allowed to self-actualize, where you have that experience, that moment, that feeling that at the end of a race, everything went wrong.

right or when everything went wrong, you still finished. It's that feeling where your soul just expands and your arms are in the air and it's triumph. So we're starting to work on just simple steps to get to that place. And part of it has to do with flow theory. And again, it's a great theory, but it doesn't tell you how to get there. It just tells you what it is. So we're trying to really capture how do you get it. How do you attain it? And is it possible to always have have it?

Is it possible in every experience to actually feel this way? Or is this just sort of a floaty thing that sometimes happens? And sometimes you get lucky and you get capture that moment. Yeah. Well, what's really neat is the name of your business, or I should say movement, is human potential. And you're helping people tap into that through what they do physically. And now it sounds like helping them look inward mentally and tap into more of that. So you know, it's really inspiring to see what you're, you're both up to.

John, I'll be following you and your escapades and adventures and maybe join a fat ass. We'll see what feels good. This, this winner, for people who want to connect with you. Now, if they're in Colorado, they can go to your website.

John45:11What's the URL? It's humanpotential running.com.

Ravi45:14Okay. But actually, you know, you get people from all over the country coming in for your races, right? We actually have people coming

John45:20in from all over the world okay we have uh actually this year we had a huge uh france contingent come out and join us for our races for the second year in a row and i think that's because some of our races are qualifiers for utmb um

Ravi45:36which is the big the big 104 mile race in france yeah it's like the granddaddy it

John45:41Is the granddaddy? Yeah, but you know those, those folks are coming out here. Just a quick story yeah, one of the gentlemen that came out from france the year told me the story about this run he does in downtown Paris where they cross over the. Is it the rhine? I don't know which where it is, but there's a river in paris and, uh, they cross over it on every single footbridge and it ends up being like an 18 mile run. But he was telling another young runner during that run, that run, that he was coming to america to run in a race.

There's thousands of races like mine in america and this guy is so, were you running? He's like oh, I'm running with Human Potential. Oh, I ran with them last year. So in Paris, France, these two random runners who met each other on a fun run are talking about the Human Potential Running Series and their experiences here. And that's really awesome for us. Yes, what we do is for all people from all nations. And that's why this research project that we're working on is so important is because we want to show the entire world what is possible with the power of thought and just believing in yourself um and so yeah it's great i you know i'm really excited

Ravi46:57um where can people connect with you um so

John47:00we have a a facebook page human it's hp running series is our facebook page we're on twitter uh trying to get instagram rolling again but our website is probably the best place which is www www human potential running dot

Ravi47:14com human potential running you've got all your events there. You've got the fat asses, which are more of a, you know, no whining, no fee kind of show up and run thing. And then we have an email list as

John47:27well. Yeah, we have a monthly newsletter that goes out and that's where I get an opportunity to share a lot of my thoughts. Folks can email me at Sherpa John at gmail.com if they'd like to share something or ask any questions, but I also have my own podcast called Ultra Stories, and it kind of speaks more towards what we've been talking about, which is people sharing their experiences with one another. And there's a link on our website to that, too.

Ravi47:57Yeah, wonderful. Well, John Hollis, thanks a lot.

John48:01Happy trails. Yeah, thank you.