Manoj Vasudevan: 2017 World Champion of Public Speaking [Podcast Ep. #10]

Transcribed from the episode audio by AI, so it may contain mistakes.

Ravi0:19Welcome to the Motivated Life podcast. I'm Ravi Raman. On today's episode, I'll be speaking with Manoj Vasudevan. Manoj is the 2017 world champion of public speaking. Yes, that's right. There is actually a world championship for public speaking. And I figured if there's anyone worth speaking to about how to create presentations and talks that captivate an audience and that inspire people to action that Manoj would be a good person to speak with. I thought for sure he would have some good tips to share and turns out I was right.

And I actually stumbled upon Manoj randomly, I was browsing YouTube and I stumbled upon his video from the World Championships of Public Speaking last year. And the title of this video is pull less, bend more. And this competition was sponsored by the Toastmasters Organization. And I believe over 30,000 people entered to compete from well over 100 countries. And out of all the entrance through the various rounds of competition, Manoj progressed and eventually ended up winning. And his talk is very good, as one would expect. It's short.

Seven minutes long but conveys a powerful message. And in today's podcast we we talk about a wide range of things relating to speaking. We talk about why empathy is the most critical success factor for any speaker. We talk about the role of humor in speaking and how minoge believes anyone can be funny if they learn how to, how to practice and workshop their material and we go into that. We talk about the role of preparation in giving a great talk and how most of the work of any speaker should come well before a PowerPoint slide is written or a word document is created.

And it's all about understanding your audience and empathizing with their needs And, surprisingly, we talk about Minosia's belief that introverts have the potential to be the best speakers and why that's the. So we talk about all these subjects and there are definitely a number of nuggets in here that are inspiring and, if anything, I hope it inspires you to create an opportunity to get out there and deliver a talk, deliver a presentation at work and deliver a talk to a community group or an organization that you would like to speak to, and really taking one piece of advice minot shares to heart, which is raising your hand and seeking an opportunity to deliver a message.

I'll be doing the same as I'm giving a talk on leadership to an audience in the next month or so. Well, with that, let's get going. Join me in welcoming, Minoge Vasudevan. Manoj, thanks for joining me.

Manoj3:36Glad to be here, Ravi.

Ravi3:38So, what's your life like now that you've wrapped up your World Championship competition and public speaking.

Manoj3:46Oh, it was a sense of relief that I checked off something on my bucket list. But it's like life as usual, just that more intense in terms of, because I've already been doing professional speaking and coaching. And now I do a lot more, a lot more of that. But my core thing I'm doing still remains the same. Yeah, but it's been quite pretty busy.

Ravi4:10So what got you into public speaking? Well,

Manoj4:14if you're interested in my backstory, as you said, is I'm an engineer. I'm a streness engineer. I graduated. So I started working in organizations, multinational organizations, and I went into management consulting in one major multinational company, PricewaterhouseCoopers. And I was growing in my career every year, got some promotion, pay rates, some new position. I was very happy. The pay was good. Everything was excellent. Then one day, everything stopped. No pay raise, no promotion, no new position. That's when I went to my boss and said, hey, how come this year you didn't give me a promotion of a pay raise?

And he said, Mano, let me be honest with you, You don't have what it takes to get to the next level. You've reached your potential. So I got very disappointed and I went back to my friends and said, hey, what should I do now? So every single person I met said, almost every single person I met said you know, your problem is you're an engineer, so people don't value engineers. So you need, if you want to progress in your personal life or in a professional life, you need to take a MBA.

So that was like the what everyone else was doing. So even today I went to do my MBA. But then I went at Imperial College London there's a nine great. I met a lot of people, but two years later, thousands of dollars there, nothing tangent. There was no tangent change in my career. So that's when, for the first time in my life, I started to observe what you need to just grow in your professional life or in a personal life. So I start observing people who are really growing, and I was made detailed notes.

I did observe, so I found out, there are five core skills you need to have to succeed in your professional life and in your personal life, and if you're not mastering this five core skills, I believe you're always no operating under your potential. So the five core skills and ability to connect, to communicate, to network, to lead, and to sell, as in getting others to buy your ideas, products or service. And so I got very fascinated by them. I never learned these skills. Even though I was quite successful, so to speak, in my job, I would never pay attention to this.

So one of the first thing I did was left my job and I started my own consulting company. He was like jumping in the deep end of the pool. I'm an introvert by nature. I will not be the center of a party. So it was a bit stretch for me. So then one by one, I started learning these skills, one by one mastering the skills. So public work speaking is one of the last things I wanted to try because it was an innate fear of getting in front of people.

So once I started, I found the power of speaking because you can have mass influence. Influence over and you can spread, get your name out, you can stand out, you can move up, you have people on your side, you've been very influential. I said, oh, this is really powerful. And I've been observing a lot of political leaders coming from nowhere, from obscurity, and then they go into national fame, even in the U.S., and every other part of the world. And I said, oh, this is a skill I need to learn.

And as I started learning, I found mentors, I found opportunities. So I kept on speaking, speaking in like various, I started stand-up comedy. I got better at it. I got like master's.

Ravi7:36So was this after your MBA?

Manoj7:38Yes, yes, it's after MBA. So MBA, even the MBA, I regret that I took it from very academic perspective. And the real value of MBA was not the academics at all. It was the people you meet and the connections you make. And so if I go back to do my MBA, that is what I will focus on. So 80% of the time would be on making those connections and relationships. So I got better. And then when I got better, people came to me and said, how do you do this?

I never thought about teaching anyone right. So I started getting interested in helping people to achieve what I have achieved Not in public speaking, but actually what I do is people call me a next level leadership readiness expert. So the word came from the people who came to me for help and when I was asking, they all wanted that, And so I specialized in that getting people to the next level in the organization, no matter how high or a level. That is because I found out there are certain things you can do to stand out and move out, be more influential, be seen as someone who can be promoted, and so I specialize in that and I help people achieve that, public speaking being one of the things now.

But the reason I went for the world championship was somebody told me there's something called a world championship, public speaking. That's how it started. Once I started, I couldn't stop, so I just. But that was not the thing. Actually, the things we do beyond that, that really matters. So if

Ravi9:10you can describe people who are listening will probably be amazed that there is such a thing as world championship of public speaking. Can you explain a bit about what it is, who hosts it, what they judge on, a bit of the mechanics of it, and then also we can talk about your journey to this past year's championship.

Manoj9:30So I leave it to you whether you want to pursue this. And before I explain that, let me tell you. You don't need to be a world chairman of public speaking to be a great speaker. A lot of great speakers are not world champions of public speaking. But it's actually organized in the U.S. out of California, Toastmasters, which runs the World Championship of Public Speaking. Toastmas is an organization with some 350,000 members worldwide. And they focus on as a self-help group, bring people together to hone their skills in public speaking leadership.

And they every year run a contest called the world championship public speaking, attended by 35000 of speakers from 142 countries. There are six levels of competition as and the person who wins clears all the level becomes the world champion of public speaking. You gets a title. Now the funny part is you need to deliver a seven minute speech, so people say it's only seven minutes, but now there's so many things you can have been said in a seven minute speech. So the intensity is because how do you stand out in that seven minutes?

Make your message truly universal, how we can connect with people around the world. And so it's something that's a speech that is universal that connects to some guidance of structures and delivery techniques, voice, language. That scores you higher in the contest. But the number one thing that makes you stand out is the ability to connect with people you're speaking to.

Ravi10:58Got it. Now, for the 2017 competition, you said there were 35,000 globally that were involved was your goal to win was your goal just to do your best what was what was your thinking when you first started this process oh brilliant

Manoj11:13So first started the process. I first I was just curious, I just want to do it, but usually when I get myself into doing something I'll finish it. That that's my nature. Is that the spirit? But when I first started, I lost my contest at the first level. So that got me like interested in learning more and but I also made up my mind. I was only compete five times because I'm not, because this is not well. Some people spend like 30 years and to win this.

So I said I'm not going to spend my whole life behind this, I'm just going to give like try for five years. And so I've been competing over a period of seven years. Eventually, when the fifth time I competed, I was world number three in 2015. I left it at that. I didn't want to compete. Then something prompted me to speak again in 2017. One of the reason was here was my opportunity to speak to the entire world. So I wanted to speak on a topic that was quite a concern for most people because there's a lot of conflicts and issues going around in the world between religion, between politics and people are after each other.

We were to bring up a nuclear war and things like that. So I thought, you know, this is my opportunity to speak. So my number one goal was to get to the world stage and deliver my message. It was about, I can, Google, it's called pull less, Benmore. It's about tolerance and giving in. So, I looked at my, how do you get this chance to speak to the world? So that was my primary driver. In fact, I've given up the competition. But of course, I had intention to win as well.

It's not that I didn't have, I didn't have intention to win, but I also, but that's not a guarantee that I'll win. But then I said, because you don't know what others are coming up with. So my, so having delivered that speech, I felt quite powerful. quite

Ravi13:03what was your prep what was your preparation like getting ready for so it's the final i'd imagine this is over the course of months that the whole all the six stages of the competition yes

Manoj13:13Yes, it's about six months, uh, but the comp, the preparation, might start, like, uh, six months prior to that. So certainly maybe you were spending like a year for this and um, the prep is more like you're actually thinking over what you want to speak and um the feedbacks you've want to get, how we fine-tune a message, how we can say something that will not offence any guru, but it becomes truly universal. So what I say is the best speeches are the best speeches, and presentations are not written.

They are rewritten. You need to spend time to understand the audience, and understand, fine-tune the message, fine-tune a presentation. So that's where the intensity of the competition comes from. Most people will not go through an extent of rewriting something they wrote. So that's you stand

Ravi14:03out. Right. Interesting. So is there something you've learned in this process of 2017 of creating your presentation and delivering it that you now know, that you wish you knew a year ago when you first started

Manoj14:17This Okay. So I initially, when I started, I used to see speakers and on stage either they are like a presidential, speak like a president. So every year I was mastering some skill. So initially I learned how to speak like a president, like as I'm using rhetorical or rhetorical skills. Then I learned that there are speakers who make people laugh, humorous, entertaining speakers. So I was not humorous at all, but I spent a year to master humor in 2010 yeah, I think it's 2009 to 2010, that period and so then I started blending it's very serious men.

Then I learned storytelling as done, so there are different aspects. I learned so from 2015 to 2017. What I really learned was to connect at an emotional level. So I was good in storytelling. I was better in really good in humor as well. But then this emotional part I didn't really work on that what emotional state I want to leave the audience with. So I started blending that into the speeches I deliver and more all we paid more focus because I became less humorous and I was trying to build that invisible connection with the audience.

So that was my biggest learning.

Ravi15:35Right. So how do you, humor is, you mentioned you practiced stand-up

Manoj15:39comedy. Yes, I did.

Ravi15:41So how would, I mean, I can only imagine how art it must be to make someone laugh.

Manoj15:47Okay. Funny enough, I believe stand-up comedy is a technique anyone can learn. It's one of the, I can't say it's easiest. It's actually anyone can be a standard comedian, right? If you're willing to spend time for doing this. The reason I'm I was not funny as I said the first time I was tried to compete actually in a humorous kind of situation. I was not even placed. So of course that setback is what prompted me to like spend some one year to learn this thing. So actually if you're an engineer or if you have an analytical mind, you can understand that a lot of patterns that make people laugh.

So what stand-up comedians do is to understand those patterns. They test out the jokes and they only show you the best material. They will never show you what they didn't work. So when you are upon saying delivering that joke, you know that's going to work because it always worked. So one of my friends, the stand-up community, is a friend of Jerry Seinfeld. And he says, Jerry says, no, he actually practices what he called glow in the dark. Glow in the dark means, you know, you will not see Jerry Seinfeld on a big stage testing a new joke.

So he will go to some obscure town, goes to open mic night and test his joke, make sure it works, then he comes and gets on the big stage. So you will never see him fail because the failures are behind the scene. And the reason I say stand-of-comedy is because people who come for stand-of-comedy, who are in the audience, come there to laugh. They're primed to laugh. And not only that, when you see somebody laughing, you better join in because other people think you didn't get the joke.

So it's actually also a psychological effect of you joining in the laughter. And eventually when the state is changed, you laugh for even the most serious thing. Even sometimes some of the guys I coach, Manoj, I never expected anyone to laugh here. I said, yeah, because the state has changed. There was laugh for anything now. They just got the habit of laughing. So, this is a skill you can learn? But I gave it up. I was in the top 25 stand-up committees, international comedy festival of Hong Kong.

After that, I didn't want to follow that path because my objective was different. So I went into more into professional speaking and coaching.

Ravi18:01And on the emotional connection piece, that's one where, at least in corporate environments, I think people would probably listen and think, oh, that's taboo. We want to keep things cut and dry, numerical, analytical. I mean, what would you say to someone who says, oh, emotions have no place in? Okay. If you look

Manoj18:19It up. No, there is emotion everywhere. I'll take it. You are a technology guy In 1983 when Apple launched the computer, was it called Lisa? And that's what got Steve Jobs fired around that time, I believe. Was it right 1983 or something, Something like that? Somewhere around the time Sounds right. Yeah, I don't know, but that was his last. At least that was the last product that Steve Jobs worked on. What they did was they pulled out an ad, a nine-page ad on the New York Times, explaining all the technical features of the product and obviously the product didn't work.

Nobody understood. Only a NASA engineer will understand. Somebody like a high-tech Silicon Valley guy will understand those specs. Now, what happened in between was, if we come back to 2000, I think 1997, when, whenever Steve Jobs came back, he had all his experience in doing this movies and storytelling and things like that, you see that Apple rebrand was just two words. You don't see Apple showing anything except their keywords. Think different. They show no, no picture of the computer, no technical features. You never see those things.

They'll tell you what. You can get brilliant pictures, brilliant videos, your own, so they're always talking. So now, if you look at the difference of nine page ad to just two words, or the ability to storytell is all part of emotional connect. And you can always find ways to include that in your messaging. Otherwise, what happens is people are telling, giving data without a point. That throwing data at people and nobody can engage that kind of information. There's too much mental strain to process that information.

Yeah.

Ravi20:11Right. So you've mentioned a few things that matter. humor and the emotional connection, storytelling, this idea of, you know, at least in the world of comedy, people revising their content, honing their content, just like you did in your year's preparation for the competition. Are there any other key things that you think differentiate, let's say a good presenter from an outstanding one?

Manoj20:38It does. So there are tons of stuff on this. I even teach a course called Nervous to fabulous, right? But what I would say is, before you write any presentation, there are three questions you need to answer. Then the first question is is he and you can understand, one of the most difficult things you can do in your life is listen to somebody else. Speaking, he's listening is difficult. So now the audience is, the way I look at is if I'm giving a one hour presentation to a group of thousand people or even hundred people, I look at it that the audience is spending 100 hours in my presentation.

100 times 1 hour, 100 hours in my presentation. So they're investing time. So my first question is what is my return, the? What is the return on time invested? So what I call it? What is the roti? ROTI, what's the roti right? So what is the return of? Will they get value any? Unless you give value, they're not going to come back for your presentation. So you need to mention they. They spend one hour, they need to get something out of it. So that's number one.

Second question I ask is what is the proof? That means you don't go up on stage and say something can be challenged. So you need to get your facts right, your research right. You need to know how you cover up whatever you show on screen or whatever you say needs to be backed up. And the third thing that there's a series of questions you ask, I call it what is the funda? F-U-N-D-A funder is before? These are these are things. Before you open a PowerPoint slide or keynote, you just this, just before you get to the drawing board, is what do you want your audience?

To feel after listening to your presentation. So after listening to your presentation, what do you want your audience to feel? That's the first one, F. Second is, what do you want your audience to unveil? What is something new you can tell? For example, if you look at presentations like in Steve Jobs or any other great presenters or TED Talks, they always tell you some new information that hooks you. You say, aha, you have a surprise moment and this is related to neuroscience because we remember points of life which created suspense and emotional response.

And so what do you want the audience to unveil? The third one is what do you want your audience to notice? Notice as in they already know something, but by you are asking some questions, it precipitates the top of their mind. So maybe you're asking their problems, their concerns, something that precipitates the pain to the top of their mind. Now they're thinking about it. So not thinking, so they notice. So this is not enough. The next question is what do you want your audience to do after listening to your presentation?

Most people just give the dumb information and leave and there's no action, right? Right. So in corporate life, usually if you notice, a lot of times it's a meeting ends with the decision to have another meeting. Right? Then the cycle goes on. There's no decision. So this is very critical. What do you want the audience to do? And then last one, just because you ask people to do something they won't do, because you need to answer this next question, which is, what do you want your audience to achieve?

So funder is feel, unwail, notice, do, and achieve. So everything you say should further your funder. It means everything you say in your presentation is to achieve that fun. I mean, it seems to me

Ravi23:56between the rooty, the proof, the funder, pretty much before you've written a single bullet point on PowerPoint, you have a sense of the presentation, the talk, the feeling, the call to act. action, all that's pretty much done. So you're really pointing to a bunch of prep work before the actual presentation is.

Manoj24:20And I would recommend that you keep a card or something in front of you as you do. So you know, this is what I'm going to do. Otherwise, it's very easy to divert. It's very easy to take audience off attention. You don't want the audience to think about anything else than what you are saying. So, of course, there are techniques of storytelling on ways you craft your speech that hooks the audience, but the funder should be like your core objective that's always in sight. Right.

Ravi24:47And what's intriguing is your talk, pull less, bend more, was seven minutes. Yes. And it communicated a powerful universal theme of giving in and being willing to bend to accommodate other people's beliefs or needs and values and work together. And it was seven minutes. Yeah, that's right. Communicating a powerful thing. I'm just thinking of all the hour-long meetings I sat through and two-hour PowerPoint slides that, you know, we can really distill stuff down into a shorter, shorter, more powerful, impactful talk. Now, I want to go back to something that's been on my mind that we spoke a brief bit about before we started the podcast, which is there are surely lots of people who label themselves introverts.

Now, I personally don't believe in these labels, introverts, extroverts, but there are some people who will feel more shy, feel like speaking isn't their thing. And they're probably wondering, well, is this really for me or not? I mean, what would you say to someone who is an introvert? They're struggling with voicing their opinion and being heard, and they're not really sure what to do. What words of wisdom and advice would you provide? In

Manoj26:03my opinion, okay, I coach people from some 27 different nationalities. Right. And I do one, as you know, coaching, we are having a very personal connect one-on-one. And I also observe speakers and the journey's backstory. If I see a famous speaker, I'll always look at the backstory and find out. In my observation, the best public speakers are introverts. Really? Yeah. Why do you think so? Why is that? No, what do you want to take a guess? Why?

Ravi26:34I mean, all I can, I just think of my sense. myself, the one benefit I have with my introverted tendencies is I tend to think, I tend to think a lot and plan a lot.

Manoj26:45Yeah. So that's what you need. That's what you need to be a speaker, because we need to think before you speak. So sometimes we are so like, so used to speaking. You're not thinking. So a lot of times in my life we need to reflect, we need to process of emotion, We need to recharge ourselves, We need to think before you speak. And when you think you're big and also you're more empathetic, That means that's a very powerful thing. In public speaking, that means you're caring for the audience.

So I'm not saying extroverts are bad speakers, but in general, introverts are really really good in connecting because they're more empathetic and they're thinking before they speak. And this has been experienced for me and I give you a very quick, short example. I met a lady in Australia and she said oh, my husband is an extrovert and his brother is an introvert and the husband couldn't deliver his wedding speech on properly on stage and while the introvert guy who is not never speak to anyone, it's like a star on stage and everyone loves him, right?

So it actually, when you analyze this, situation is actually uh, of course you need just because, introd, I don't think you're better speaking you need to put effort. You are primed to become a better speaker, right, you need to put the effort to learn and master the skills and, uh, this can be really, really powerful.

Ravi28:03what's the best way to improve in speaking

Manoj28:07In general. So the best way to improve is, of course, is, first thing, be well read on your topic. Generally, reading is a habit that improves your thinking right. Of course, I've heard about audiobooks, but typically I tend to still read books than audio books, because that actually slows you down. It gives you time to think, I can decide when to stop and think And you also process the input. Reading is one. Second is knowing that you need to go prepared for this, but the easiest way to do this is whenever you get an opportunity to speak, cease that opportunity, get that opportunity, grab that opportunity.

Then you figure out how to speak right. So a lot of time people say a preparation. It never happens, even for toastmasters. I tell them if they have this. The reason is it's not like a practice. You practice the purpose. So if you go and if you should put yourself up to situation where you're not comfortable and you raise your hand and then you figure out a way to prepare and more and more you speak, you know, you get used to it and also record. All your speeches and have the courage to watch yourself speak.

Ravi29:20I recommend that for for my clients as well yeah if you're using Zoom meeting or WebEx just record it and watch also this idea I love the example you shared of Jerry Seinfeld by the time he gives his big present big comedy show he's tested the material and some things have done great some have not and

Manoj29:42What you're seeing is sort of the best of things. If you look at Barack Obama was famous because of 2004 Democratic National Convention and if you look at the backstory of that, he was so nervous he was practicing in the car, he was practicing by and the street, but when you appear on the on stage, he's like the super confident guy, right. So this is always the case. You know you need to do some prep work, but your fear should not stop you from taking an opportunity.

I say, whenever I got an opportunity, some, not that long ago to speak in front of 20,000 people. And it was like two hours, two days before even they invited me. And it was hesitant. So eventually I went through that process. And what I tell people is, whenever I get to invite, people ask me, hey, how do you feel? I say, I feel fine. And fine stands for freaked out, insecure, nervous and excited. Right. So you've got to have that feeling, then you emerge better at the end of it.

Right.

Ravi30:37So as a speaker, just as we wrap up here in the last couple of minutes, what are one or two things you're personally working on in your own speaking, your own developmental areas in your speaking?

Manoj30:48So one of the things I'm helping a lot of executives is to come up with the keynote speaking, right? And I'm helping them to deliver those 40-minute keynote that expands their presence. So one of the things I am doing myself is in that process, I'm also working on, coming on more keynote speeches, ready-made keynote speeches. I want to speak on broader topics. So this weekend I'm speaking on three different topics. So I just want to be like ready for those kind of thing, not do everything last minute.

So that's something I'm going to do I'm working on. Right.

Ravi31:25And as you look ahead to 2018, are you planning to compete again? in the Toastmasters?

Manoj31:30No, I'm not allowed to compete. I'm disqual if once you're winning, you're not allowed to compete. But I also do like I'm more involved in teaching and coaching now, so to speak. So I have his mission of helping 20 million people to overcome their fear of public speaking. Wow, That's something. I'm working on rolling out some online programs, basically free online programs so I can reach more people, And so I got a website called Nervous to Fabulouscom. So probably in coming months I will be able to put this up, because these are stuff I tested with a lot of people how to break their fear and get used to speaking.

Then I thought, no, that was my goal after I won the major goal, but I got so busy to get to do that so, but that's one of our bigger goals actually. Well,

Ravi32:1920 million people that sounds like a big goal but looking forward to testing out some of your content myself If people want to connect with you, Nervistafabulous.com.

Manoj32:32So I'm always on LinkedIn. You can connect with me on LinkedIn. That's where you can find me the best. My website is thoughtexpressions.com. Okay. Thoughtexpressions. That's my company where I do, where we run this coaching and programs. Right.

Ravi32:52Well, Manoj, I appreciate you taking some time out of your busy day. You've dropped a number of. of tips that I think will help people think about speaking and perhaps, I hope, motivate them to raise their hand and create an opportunity to speak in front of their friends, their peers, their colleagues, other companies, and get out there and realize that it's not so scary.

Manoj33:14It's not scary. And I actually, I have a book called Mastering Leadership, The Moucester way. And one of the key things I say is that you're never too small to be big. You're never too small to be big, and you should live life that believing the best is set to come. Stay confident, believe, and take action. So that makes a whole difference in your life. Wonderful.

Ravi33:37Well, I appreciate it, Manoj. Have a great day. Thank you. You can get more details about everything we talked about today on my website. Just go to Ravi Raman.com forward slash podcast for show notes with links and additional background information. You'll also find a full archive of all previous episode. By the way, if you're enjoying the podcast, it would mean a lot to me if you would leave a review and rating. It really helps others to discover what I'm up to here. And of course, you can always share it with your friends.

Well, that's it for today. I'll see you in the next episode.